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Johannus Opus 1105 External Speakers Help Needed Please
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diapason8



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 365
Location: West Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob, I've just spotted this listing on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Viscount-Organ-Speakers-7-Various-Sizes_W0QQitemZ220133397267QQihZ012QQcategoryZ16219QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Wondered whether it might be of use to you.

N
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RobCharles



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Swansea, South Wales, Uk

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think they would be suitable for Johannus Organs I think they need to be the UL Speaker Systems.

http://webmanager.trendesign.nl/makin/wm.cgi?lng=EN&main=13&id=58&flash=
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diapason8



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 365
Location: West Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a pity as it looks like they may go cheaply. Sad

N
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RobCharles



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
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Location: Swansea, South Wales, Uk

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contacted Makin Organs about an open fault on my instrument this is what I had, I told my Rector about the fault and he told me to chase this up it up with them I hope Makin see the way through, do you think it's worth spending £3,000 for speakers for this organ or could there be a cheaper and better way?? I suppose a free loan wouldn't go amiss it would give me and the church to communicate better.

Cheers
Rob

Thank you for your message. Based on previous communications with the church, and the fact that I have been asked on several occasions not to deal with you directly, you will appreciate that I do need to speak to Rev Pearce, and in respect of this than you for providing me with his number. I believe he is away at the moment. I hope that you do not take offence in respect of this, but do hope that you understand my reasoning for this.



In respect of the organ, if there is a fault we will certainly be able to make a visit to correct this. Both the parts and labour warranty expired for this instrument in 2002 and based upon your location there will be a call out fee of £145 plus VAT per visit which includes the first half hour of labour after which the cost is £40 plus VAT per hour or part thereof.


In terms of the speakers, two of my colleagues have visited the church in the past and both have advised that an external set of speakers is not necessary. Based upon this and other factors I am not really in a position to offer a free loan of speakers. However, should you decide to go ahead with the purchase of speakers against our advise, the cost would be £1,830 plus a speaker box and installation cost, making a likely total of £3,000 plus VAT. Based upon the age of the instrument (this was built between 1989 and 1993), I do not think this is a wise investment.
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RobCharles



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Swansea, South Wales, Uk

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had a further reply from Makin Organs today: This is what I wrote back.


Thank you for your message.

First of All Rev Andrew Pearce is not away from the parish as I speak so you can contact him as you wish, and he will say the exact what I'm getting across "Rob is the one in charge to be talking with the organ builders ect" which is rightfully true it's in my requirements as organist of the church and RSCM requirements to be doing so because myself know what needs to be done I have confirmed this with him.

[Makin Organs] The message on his answer machine is that he is away for a few days … I have asked him to call me back.

Do keep me informed about a planned visit, and let me know all the arrangements though me, so I will be there on site to talk to Chris French about my concerns. Can you tell me what was done on the last visit to "Mute" the volume on this organ, I've been trying to find out from other organ experts of mine for any clues on this situation some where saying that there is "Amplifier Cards" to adjust the volume.

[Makin Organs] Chris and Jo will work with you on a date/time. The volume can be modified on the organ by a series of potentiometers. However, my understanding is that it is currently at a maximum that can be delivered without distortion of the speakers.

As the way the speakers go, I do believe in my view that something will need to be done with the speakers location, I can see for myself the situation that it is in as I said "The Further back in the church you go the more faint it becomes" I don't also think there is enough volume to support a full church on the special services believe you me I can we had a service back in April the Church packed - The Organ in Theory is not keeping up with events. I can honestly say I have far more pleasure in hearing and playing the St Teilos Bishopston Organ, it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up on end.

[Makin Organs] You need to bear in mind that the Opus 1105 was never designed to be a church instrument, this was built by Johannus for home practice only, so based upon this there no doubt could be limitations with its use.

There is internal and speaker support on the organ to either have the externals on or off and revert back to the internal speakers.
Thanks for letting me know of the cost of a possible investment of speakers, can you clarify what speakers you would recommend just to get me in the picture do you also know of any second ones available? The purchase would come in due course to much on in the church at the moment.

[Makin Organs] The speaker recommended are the UL series of speakers (see our website) with a bass of UL3000 or UL3300 and the rest from UL110 speakers. We never have nor would sell second-hand speakers.
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diapason8



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 365
Location: West Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rob,

This difficult saga seems set to run 

It might be a good idea to ask your Rector to speak to or email Makin’s asking them to reply to you. They then have no ‘excuse’. But, it seems like they are charging ‘like a wounded bull’ to do a straightforward job and have little or no interest in it. As far as the dumb note on the pedal is concerned, this sounds like a simple dirty contact problem. If the note doesn’t sound on any stop, then try sliding the pedal board out an, very gently, blowing any dust off the switch. You could also try a spray of switch cleaner. This may cure the problem. If not, then try repeatedly playing the note to see if you can clear the fault . Last resort is to ask a local firm to come and look at it. Makin’s price seems far too high.

As far as the speakers go – and I stress that I am NOT a qualified engineer, so don’t rely of this – have a look at the speaker socket(s). Are they marked in any way (ie 8 ohm, 16 ohm)? What type of socket are they? (ie 1.4” jack, DIN, XLR). If you can establish this, you could try to borrow a speaker, plug it in and see what it sounds like. You may find that plugging in an external mutes the internals. You may find that the internal amplifier powers the externals. Otherwise, you may need active (ie with a built-in amplifier) speakers or a separate amp The prices quoted by Makin’s seen very high, and, it’s probably NOT justified on that organ, as Dr Harrington comments. But, if you can pick up some suitable speakers on Ebay, or elsewhere, you may be able to do it on the cheap. You’ll need to think about a suitable place to mount speakers which will be large to handle the bass.

Another thought is to ask someone you trust, to sit at the back of the church during a service and tell you honestly what it sounds like. Often, the acoustics in a church can be deceiving, and it may sound louder than you think. But, if all the sound is at your knee level, then you’re probably right. Further thought – if Makin’s are now saying that the organ was only designed for home use, then why did they sell it to your church?

My final advice remains the same………… find a church with a decent organ and less hassle!

Good luck,


Nigel
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RobCharles



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Swansea, South Wales, Uk

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diapason8 wrote:
Hi Rob,

This difficult saga seems set to run 

It might be a good idea to ask your Rector to speak to or email Makin’s asking them to reply to you. They then have no ‘excuse’. But, it seems like they are charging ‘like a wounded bull’ to do a straightforward job and have little or no interest in it. As far as the dumb note on the pedal is concerned, this sounds like a simple dirty contact problem. If the note doesn’t sound on any stop, then try sliding the pedal board out an, very gently, blowing any dust off the switch. You could also try a spray of switch cleaner. This may cure the problem. If not, then try repeatedly playing the note to see if you can clear the fault . Last resort is to ask a local firm to come and look at it. Makin’s price seems far too high.

As far as the speakers go – and I stress that I am NOT a qualified engineer, so don’t rely of this – have a look at the speaker socket(s). Are they marked in any way (ie 8 ohm, 16 ohm)? What type of socket are they? (ie 1.4” jack, DIN, XLR). If you can establish this, you could try to borrow a speaker, plug it in and see what it sounds like. You may find that plugging in an external mutes the internals. You may find that the internal amplifier powers the externals. Otherwise, you may need active (ie with a built-in amplifier) speakers or a separate amp The prices quoted by Makin’s seen very high, and, it’s probably NOT justified on that organ, as Dr Harrington comments. But, if you can pick up some suitable speakers on Ebay, or elsewhere, you may be able to do it on the cheap. You’ll need to think about a suitable place to mount speakers which will be large to handle the bass.

Another thought is to ask someone you trust, to sit at the back of the church during a service and tell you honestly what it sounds like. Often, the acoustics in a church can be deceiving, and it may sound louder than you think. But, if all the sound is at your knee level, then you’re probably right. Further thought – if Makin’s are now saying that the organ was only designed for home use, then why did they sell it to your church?

My final advice remains the same………… find a church with a decent organ and less hassle!

Good luck,


Nigel



Hi Nigel thanks for the email.

I don't know when I'm seeing my Rector next I might see him Wednesday who knows, I will ask him to speak to makins for me then they will contact me from then on.

I will have a look at this note on the pedal board problem when I'm next up there might be this Sunday afternoon probably, I will also check the speaker sockets for you as well, very high on their prices I must agree with you, but when I heard the speaker system on the Makin Near me by god what a sound for 20stops believe you me! The Church we have is very limited for space.

What I could do I could stick an add in the RSCM wanted list for any suitable speakers for this type of organ going cheap.

I heard this sound from the organ for myself, and I don't personally think its enough sound to cover the building but someone who is an organist claims when he stands at the back of the church he is often "deaf" and when I had my young cousion down with me a few weeks who wants to learn the organ bless her! I stood at the back of the church there is no "guts" on it whatsoever, if you sit right at the back of the church the sound is "fainted" you can't feel the bass nor the main organ come half way its average but they are not very powerful speakers can you understand what Dr Harrington said about the modification of the volume

"The volume can be modified on the organ by a series of potentiometers. However, my understanding is that it is currently at a maximum that can be delivered without distortion of the speakers.


The sound is to much located in the console, I can't understand this either why Makin sold the church this organ, I wasn't involved at the time of the purchase, but I'm not very impressed with that to be quite honest, it would be better if the church gave me that organ for my house for practice and they could buy a proper organ but that won't happen I don't think that will happen.

Regards
Rob
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diapason8



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 365
Location: West Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I understand, the speaker system should cost as much as the organ to get a really good sound. If the speakers are internal, then the sound is concentrated in one place, and aimed at your feet. The need seems to be not for more volume, but for the sound to be distributed properly.

I've been thinking about a few electronics I have played: My own ancient Allen has no internal speakers, just a very large sound cabinet. Of course, in the house, I've got to keep it turned down very low and the sound is not wonderful - it is, after all, an old analogue. But, when it was in a church, the speaker cabinet was located in a chamber on the wall of the church. Even though it was generally acknowledged that it wasn't really loud enough, it sounded fairly good. In another church where a late analogue Johannus was put in as a 'temporary' (four years ago and no replacement in sight) organ, the installers, WM Organs, put an additional amplifier with drove four speakers. These were placed on the top of the rood screen where they couldn't be seen. The internal speakers remained in use, but this addition made the organ sound better in a very large church. They were going to buy an additional speaker to put under the tower, but this never materialised. Another local electronic which I play occasionally is a Gem. The church is very small and the organ is placed in a transept where it is difficult to see and hear properly. There is one large external speaker cabinet mounted at the back under the tower - it's actually on a platform under the ringing chamber. The apeakers are switchable at the console - ie internals/external/both. This is ok. Again, it's really a very small organ, and I would modify the speaker system to put a small unit in the chancel and turn the console round.

I think - if you're determined to stay there and fight this - that you should experiment. From what I remember from the pictures you posted a while back, there isn't much room in the church, and any speaker installations are going to be very visible. Perhaps you could paint the cabinets to match the walls of the church? I'd also suggest asking another company to quote. WM Organs may be interested (they're near Burnham-on-Sea), and there must be more local firms you could ask.

Good luck,

N
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RobCharles



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
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Location: Swansea, South Wales, Uk

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Folks Lance and Nigel (if your around that is)

I've uploaded some videos to youtube for the Organ in question tell me what YOU think?

http://www.youtube.com/results?uploaded=d&search_query=RobCharles1981
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lancecornea



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 526
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If one takes the tiny size of the church into account, then perhaps the organ is sufficient without external speakers. One Youtube viewer suggested turning the console 90 degrees so that the internal speakers face down the nave. There may be some merit in that suggestion.
Looking at it from a chorister's point of view however, it wouldn't take a huge choir to drown out this instrument, given that some of your recordings were made at full volume. So if you have a good singing congregation, from the back of the church the organ may be difficult to hear.
As Nigel and I have said many times Rob, you should move on to a church with an instrument that satisfies your needs.
Cheers
Lance Wink
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RobCharles



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
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Location: Swansea, South Wales, Uk

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Lance

Well I turned the organ around the other way I won't see the congregation, Id prefer to see the congregation singing ect. Bearing in mind this model is a limited organ to what it can do.

Both WM Organs and another organ builder quoted £1,500 for the full kit, so thats something to look at, what I find with this organ the way its serviced by Makin the two 16bass stops have been turned down so therefore loosing "Bass" feel as well other parts of the organ.

The recordings wern't at full volume technically something inside the organ has been adjusted to do that, it sounds quite at the organ but sounds ok but not good away from the organ because its not having its full feeling.

Where the hell is Nigel??

Rob
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RobCharles



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
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Location: Swansea, South Wales, Uk

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nigel are you around?? Shocked
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RobCharles



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 306
Location: Swansea, South Wales, Uk

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The PCC Secretary (Firing the shots) we was taking about has resigned from the PCC!

A New one has been replaced - time to put plan B into action!
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lancecornea



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best of luck with Plan B Twisted Evil
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Aynho Junction



Joined: 23 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RobCharles wrote:


Where the hell is Nigel??

Rob


And Wicked...and Heth......and Stocky.......and Jason........and everyone else?! Confused
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